10 comments

  • gnegggh 2 minutes ago
    I'm making a Dutch dictionary and would be interested to see how this model would fair in evals vs non specialized ones. I've tested a variety of models for https://hetnederlands.com content and differences can be big
  • stared 18 minutes ago
    I feel that not only is Europe losing its independence to the US and China, but it does not even try to take part in the race.

    Unlike the US, Europe has no California-level VCs. I don't expect hundreds of billions of Euros to be poured into long-shot projects.

    Unlike China, Europe has neither cohesive public investment at the global level nor the drive to grow. Long-term investments have a lot of words, a lot of regulations, a lot of proxy goals, but there is neither a lot of money nor urgency. It was captured by this post: https://x.com/piotrsankowski/status/2065795919623438546

    So yeah, both in economy and warfare, Europe dooms itself to be in the hands of the US, China, or a mix of both.

    • creesch 11 minutes ago
      > Unlike the US, Europe has no California-level VCs.

      Some would consider that a good thing. There is a lot to be said for VC in recent years not being beneficial for the economy, certainly on an individual level, other than "number go up".

      • stared 6 minutes ago
        Sure.

        At the same time, it made in many cases EU dependent on the US. A lot of governments are basically dependent on MS Office or Google Cloud.

        With AI, it is even more strategic.

    • ews 13 minutes ago
      Europe decided to regulate the hell out of foreign AI instead of investing in their own systems. It's sad to see the European continent lost the race to create a decent startup ecosystem (no decent search engines, social networks, cloud, mobile OS) and now it seems to be hellbent in losing this battle.
      • joe_mamba 11 minutes ago
        >It's sad to see the European continent lost the race to create a decent startup ecosystem

        What's ironic and sad at the same time is that pre-2022 Russia's Yandex(domestic Russian variant of Google) was lightyears ahead of what EU, a significantly richer and more capable block, had. Same for Israel, their tech sector is probably greater than the EU one combined

        Absolutely shameful how the EU kept managing to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory over and over.

    • surgical_fire 1 minute ago
      Europe is not a country.

      Regulations are not even throughout each of the 27 member states. Each country is relatively small in the world stage.

      Until EU progresses towards federalization, discussing this is a moot point.

  • dwa3592 22 minutes ago
    I don't understand countries (especially governments) wanting to have their own models when there are already pretty solid open source (weights) models out there.

    Countries should want control over _where_ the compute is happening rather than _what code_ is running.

    What's wrong with a country hosting a Kimi, Qwen or GPT-Oss on their hardware for their government work purpose?

    • Achterlangs 20 minutes ago
      It is not about the country but the language. Most llms have poor or no support for Dutch.
      • tgv 11 minutes ago
        Idk which models you refer to, but I tested a bunch recently, and they performed well on Dutch. Only the smallest, such as qwen 3.6 27B, made up words and switched languages.
    • applfanboysbgon 18 minutes ago
      Why should Dutch people be expected to make do with models 99% trained on American/Chinese cultural context and language?
      • dwa3592 13 minutes ago
        Understood, but they could fine tune base models on their own cultural context and language. Why reinventing the wheel?
        • DonHopkins 4 minutes ago
          They could apply the Polder Model of consensus decision making with a mixture of experts.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model

        • applfanboysbgon 9 minutes ago
          This gets better short-term results for a fraction of the cost, for sure, but what do you when China places an export control banning the release of open weight models? If you don't have your own talent, you're then relegated to using a base model from 2026 or whatever the cutoff date is, forever. That defeats the purpose of a 'sovereign' model made for and by your people.
    • joe_mamba 18 minutes ago
      >Countries should want control over _where_ the compute is happening

      Yeah but Europe doesn't build any computer hardware, and EU Green eco-communists and NIMBVYs don't want to have data centers built in their backyard, so the only way left for EU consultancies to milk taxpayer money for the AI bubble, is shipping a sovereign AI model for each country/language.

      Watch out US tech sector, we're coming for you. Feel our wrath.

      • dwa3592 12 minutes ago
        >>Yeah but Europe doesn't build any computer hardware,

        Well, then this is will be a good start.

        • joe_mamba 4 minutes ago
          EU bureaucrats are too busy trying to keep the welfare/pension system from collapsing, defeating Russia, supporting Ukraine, managing the fossil fuels energy shortages, figuring out how to nerf Chinese EVs while supporting domestic car companies, and restricting social media free speech to make sure the "far right" don't win elections.

          Semiconductor manufacturing sovereignty is very low on their priority list.

      • davedx 11 minutes ago
        Have you heard of ASML? NXP?

        Ignorant comment

        • joe_mamba 9 minutes ago
          What computer parts does ASML or NXP make?

          ASML only makes the lithography machines, 85% of which go outside the EU. Let that sink in. And then fabs in Taiwan, Korea or the US use those ASML machines to etch US IP for computer chips.

          And NXP mostly makes various microcontrollers and small chips, not high margin decenter centric parts like ASICS, FPGAs, CPUs or GPUs.

          So not only are you the ignorant one here, but you also have the audacity to insult others.

          • dwa3592 0 minutes ago
            >>ASML only makes the lithography machines

            Woah! only lithography machines???? it is literally impossible to make any device capable of running anything close to AI without ASML. Let that sink in.

  • rollulus 47 minutes ago
    Interesting that this got posted now: the project is receiving increasingly more skepticism lately in the Dutch tech scene [0], and I think that’s fully justified.

    [0]: https://www.quotenet.nl/zakelijk/a71588202/techondernemers-m...

    • embedding-shape 36 minutes ago
      What is the exact skepticism? The only thing I could get from that was from some "tech entrepreneur":

      > GPT-NL was never built to compete with Claude or ChatGPT. It was trained exclusively on licensed data, and is intended more for governments and companies where privacy and compliance matter more than raw performance.”

      That's it? That it didn't aim to compete with SOTA models? Maybe this is something you have to start with something, then ramp up, rather do what only a select few labs been able to do, start with really big models. Especially if you're resource constrained, which since this is a government project, I really hope for the sake of the tax payers it was.

      • barrenko 21 minutes ago
        I mean if you are wasting funds kind of knowing it's nowhere near remote competitive, then it's kind of a fraud.
        • InsideOutSanta 13 minutes ago
          Targeting a niche audience with specific requirements is not fraud.
        • embedding-shape 18 minutes ago
          But why is "competing against remote SOTA models on quality" the only thing that matters here?
          • barrenko 13 minutes ago
            What the hell else is there? All the other stuff can be done by an intern with an 8 euro HF Pro subscription.

            Other than actual research, which is in a different camp.

  • wrs 51 minutes ago
    They’re building a competitive-quality model, from scratch, with fair compensation to content owners, for €13.5 million? Something’s wrong with this picture.
  • HelloUsername 1 hour ago
    Previously posted on 02-dec-2023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38497495 3 comments
  • jansenmac 1 hour ago
    This is not an open source model. In that sense I think the sovereign claim is a bit strange. It's the data providers that determine access to the model.
    • frangonf 53 minutes ago
      So it's a model that's sovereign as in sovereign kingdom of the Netherlands vs sovereign for the people's?
      • embedding-shape 42 minutes ago
        "sovereign" the marketing term basically means "in-house" now, where "house" depends on who says it.
  • stared 1 hour ago
    Is it a proposal or a model? And if it is a model, how fies it fare on benchmarks?
  • simianwords 28 minutes ago
    I really think countries should build a sovereign _ecosystem_ and sovereign models are an excuse to achieve it.

    An ecosystem is the tribal knowledge, revolving door of talent, known processes etc.

    If the end goal is to make a half assed Dutch speaking model, I think it won’t cut it. I don’t see anyone using it over Gemma 4b that runs on my laptop.

    An ecosystem is more durable and has desirable second order effects.

  • Marciplan 1 hour ago
    Supposedly this model also aims to treat publishers of all sizes well. Looking forward to its launch soon :)
    • adalacelove 1 hour ago
      Maybe it's time to acknowledge that current copyright laws do more harm than good and put another framework in place.