13 comments

  • lucd 0 minutes ago
    The worst about the SpaceX IPO is Nasdaq changing their inclusion rules for the Nasdaq 100. The index fast-tracked SpaceX stock for inclusion 15 days after the IPO, instead of the normal three-month seasoning period. They also changed its 10% minimum float rule to a 3x weighting boost for low-float stockss. So many people will unwillingly and prematurely invest into SpaceX, before it has any chance to discover its real price. IE: The floating, 5% at launch, could attain 30% end august, if Nasdaq didn't change their rules it would have included SpaceX after this..

    https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/nasdaq-che...

    • richwater 0 minutes ago
      The Nasdaq is a shit index to begin with. There are so many other options.
  • reactordev 42 minutes ago
  • binaryturtle 1 hour ago
    Article needs registration.
  • DuckConference 9 minutes ago
    > has now widened from the initial +175bps to a whopping +231bps doing more than two-thirds of the work.

    2.31% spread over treasuries is heading for junk bond status?

  • swader999 32 minutes ago
    I'm impressed with the general public. I thought these guys would get away with their hype train. Nice surprise.
    • maest 30 minutes ago
      A much larger percentage of bond traders are institutional, compared to equities, where retail is very active in some names.

      So I wouldn't really give too many points to "the general public" for this one.

    • baggachipz 30 minutes ago
      Don't worry, they made plenty with the pump-and-dump.
    • solumunus 10 minutes ago
      The thing that propelled Tesla to ridiculous heights was the massive shorting (and eventual covering). This should just drop and drop (I hope).
  • lenerdenator 52 minutes ago
    Good thing there's a strong corporate governance model at SpaceX where the c-suite is fully accountable to an independent board of directors, who could use their majority voting power to remove that c-suite at will.

    Could you imagine the abuse of power that could happen if one person held over 50% of the voting power at such a company?

    • rtkwe 43 minutes ago
      Are super shares like Zuckerberg's and Musk a new thing? Genuinely curious if they're a recent invention or something that's quietly happened for a while because it seems like a large inversion of the deal of going public, lose some control of the company in exchange for a large amount of cash but these nonvoting/supervoting share splits seem to completely upend what I understood to be part of the deal for access to the stock market.
      • anamax 3 minutes ago
        The New York Times Company operates under a dual-class stock structure where the Ochs-Sulzberger family holds roughly 95% of Class B shares. This family control allows them to elect 70% of the company's Board of Directors.

        Copied from google's response to "new york times governance"

        Google's AI also says that the NYT has had that structure since 1957.

        Ford has something similar from the 1930s. (Dodge did too until it was bought.) Raylon (synthetic textiles) did it in the 1920s and the company behind Jack Daniels did it right after Prohibition.

        Google says that the NYSE banned dual-class between 1926 and 1986; I don't know how to reconcile that with Ford.

      • georgeecollins 22 minutes ago
        Ford has them. What it has meant for Ford-- and will probably mean for Facebook-- is that Zuck's heirs will control the company, for better or for worse.

        The common justification for this is that for a media company (NYT) you want a person or family to take responsibility for the editorial content, not a pure profit seeker. Facebook has it both ways and typically denies it has editorial control.

        IMO, the flaw of markets is that they are short sighted. Sometimes this allows states to outmaneuver them with a longer view. Current exhibit A: China. Historically state intervention has been worse in the long run. But who knows. If we went into a depression a lot of people may think state intervention is a better system, as many admired the USSR during the Great Depression.

        • orionsbelt 7 minutes ago
          Zuckerberg’s high vote shares convert to regular shares after he leaves or dies. His heirs will not continue to have super votes.
          • lapcat 0 minutes ago
            I think he plans to become a Futurama brain in a jar.
      • rhplus 15 minutes ago
        Some media companies had them before the 1980s. New York Times issued dual class in 1969 so that the owning family maintained editorial control.

        Berkshire Hathaway is possibly the most famous from the 80s/90s. The class A shares are significantly more expensive and proportionately even more powerful than the class B shares. The lower price version was important back when physical exchanges didn’t support fractional shares as they do today.

      • nolta 37 minutes ago
        • lapcat 28 minutes ago
          > Kreuger's financial empire has been described by one biographer as a Ponzi scheme... Another biographer called Kreuger a "genius and swindler", and John Kenneth Galbraith wrote that he was the "Leonardo of larcenists".
      • skybrian 34 minutes ago
        No. Google has them too.
        • Arainach 31 minutes ago
          That's absolutely still "recent" when discussing corporate governance.
        • rtkwe 30 minutes ago
          Google is also pretty new in the terms I was talking about only slightly older than Facebook. I mean going back to the 80s/90s or earlier, pre current FAANG at least.
    • dgritsko 18 minutes ago
      You dropped your "/s".
  • asim 24 minutes ago
    Quite honestly IPOs and the stock market in general is a Ponzi scheme. This is something I would never have said before. I am not a skeptic. I invested in the markets for years and made money on Amazon, Google, twilio, and so many others. But I also lost a lot of money buying near or after the IPO. The game is rigged. Those who put money in post IPO in the 12 months after are left holding the bag for years. It takes 10+ years to recover that. The people who invested pre IPO, the VCs, the bankers, etc. they are getting a good deal. In the case of VCs they are taking early risk. Not at the late stage. But earlier. In many cases it's been a long hold. Again 10+ years. But anyone coming in at the IPO you are buying at a peak when someone decided that's the perfect time to hype it. We're all catching a falling knife. Doesn't matter if the business fundamentals are sound. They become disconnected from realities of the market when it all gets tulip crazy.

    These things have a way of working themselves out. But look at almost all IPOs and the next 12 months the stock is down 50+% so I'd rather wait. And honestly when I buy, it's to hold 10+ years, not make a quick buck and it's because I believe in the value. You can believe in SpaceX but also still believe the market and the dynamics of IPOs is almost criminal for retail investors.

    It's almost as bad as crypto token sales tbh.

    • Maxatar 6 minutes ago
      This isn't backed by any evidence though. Jay Ritter maintains an extensive amount of data on IPOs here:

      https://site.warrington.ufl.edu/ritter/ipo-data/

      And his data shows that IPOs for the most part perform about as well as their respective market. That is large multi-billion dollar IPOs perform about as well as the broad market, and smaller IPOs (which constitute the vast majority of IPOs) perform about as well as other small-cap companies.

      In other words, investing in IPOs doesn't give much of an advantage or disadvantage compared to investing in other similarly sized companies.

    • aftbit 15 minutes ago
      >Doesn't matter if the business fundamentals are sound.

      The business fundamentals are rarely sound for modern IPOs, especially anything Elon adjacent. His companies are just as bad as crypto token sales in terms of their hype. Heck, some of the stock price appreciation of Tesla _was_ driven by their ownership of crypto for a year or two.

    • an0malous 14 minutes ago
      Stocks, especially without dividends and negligible voting rights, are basically baseball cards for companies.
    • mikestew 7 minutes ago
      It’s been true for over twenty years that the majority of IPOs drop below their IPO price and stay there. Maybe your brokerage has some shares before IPO day that they’ll let you buy, but you’re still taking a big risk. Buy shares on the open market? Yeah, you’re the sucker they were looking for.
    • spking 4 minutes ago
      Warren Buffett famously said IPO stands for “It’s Probably Overpriced”.
  • trolleski 23 minutes ago
    Musk biggest mistake is that he wanted to start another bubble while the last bubble didn't pop yet. This is against the handbook of a Wall Street thief, bad, bad Elon.
  • preetham_rangu 58 minutes ago
    Cheap capital masked a lot of risk. The current rate environment is exposing it.
    • rsynnott 54 minutes ago
      These are bonds that were issued a few weeks ago.
      • amanaplanacanal 13 minutes ago
        My take is that the resumption of that war in Iran makes it more likely that interest rates will rise, and rising rates means falling bonds prices.
      • notahacker 36 minutes ago
        yeah, as the article said bond prices have fallen slightly over the time period but this is much more bond buyers seeing increased risk SpaceX isn't going to have the cashflow or ease of further equity raises to pay them back in the long run. (With it being bonds the upside of "but what if SpaceX actually does become bigger than the present US economy" is capped too)
        • londons_explore 15 minutes ago
          I don't see a future in which those bondholders don't get paid back.

          The company has plenty of revenue, and if needed can just turn off the r&d tap and become a boring company. Terrible for the shareholders obviously, but the bond holders will be fine.