12 comments

  • bluehatbrit 7 minutes ago
    I'm a hands on engineering leader for a team of about 20 engineers and I've been spending the past 6 months trying to get my team to understand just this.

    On Friday we had a coffee hour to share how we've been working recently and they all seemed perplexed at the workflows I've been adopting. It seems natural to me as someone who's been a manager for some time now, but very alien to all those who've never gone down that path.

    That's not to say my workflows are superior, but they're extremely different to some of my teams now. In reality it's just leaning heavily on things like prds, limiting communication between agents, etc.

  • collinmcnulty 11 minutes ago
    Relatedly, I fully expect the software business to fail to learn from (nearly) literally every other industry how to operate when your marginal costs are no longer zero. It drives me nuts the number of people in software who think that people in other industries are slow because they’re just not as smart as us, rather than because when it takes months to get a cast part made, it better be right the first time.
    • austin-cheney 0 minutes ago
      Yes, the future of software as an institution, if there is any, is driven by the loudest voices. Those loudest voices are thus driven by selected personalities as opposed to any accomplishment or title. The people who are the highest achievers are rarely the loudest voices as they tend to be the people spending time solving real problems as opposed to the people who just talk about themselves, the forest for the trees.
  • Avicebron 1 hour ago
    > You can make lots of money by making something appear novel and undiscovered, and consequently make yourself sound smart and cutting edge.

    This is pretty much the crux of it. It's very similar to the strategy of undercutting a market with VC subsidies until it dies and can be replaced.

    • sscaryterry 46 minutes ago
      VC subsidies are no longer enough, now we need IPOs to keep it going...
      • singpolyma3 40 minutes ago
        An IPO and subsequent offers is hardly a temporary subsidy. That can keep going until the economy dies.
        • sscaryterry 33 minutes ago
          Mate, its so fucked, people are going to cry way worse than 2008.
          • cyanydeez 29 minutes ago
            people in these fields we pre-crying, building the torment nexus, because if they dont, they'll be in the "permanent underclass".

            FOMO is going to kill more americans than COVID.

    • amelius 8 minutes ago
      Sounds like Apple.
    • an0malous 34 minutes ago
      As an MCP engineer, how dare you
  • patja 33 minutes ago
    Seems like this could be categorized as yet another reason why software developers are not engineers.
    • grebc 10 minutes ago
      I never understood why actual engineers(eg. Civil) have not complained more that programmers/coders stole that title.
      • indoorfish 8 minutes ago
        they have, loudly and repeatedly, it doesn't really make it very far on HN for obvious reasons.
        • grebc 3 minutes ago
          Not sure it’s obvious reasons, but understandable, sure. When someone questions your credentials the default is to tell them to jump, whether that’s a good idea or not.
    • EA-3167 17 minutes ago
      Absolutely. Engineering is defined by it learning from history, it's an art build up from thousands of years of human attempts to alter the world around them. In a modern sense engineers inevitably require a certain amount of schooling, certification, and most critically of all professional and ethical standards.
  • FrankWilhoit 46 minutes ago
    He cites Brooks as proving that communication friction is quadratic in headcount. The exponent does not need to be exactly, or even nearly, 2; 1 + epsilon is already fatal. This is very closely related to Coase's ceiling.
  • mpyne 12 minutes ago
    Man I love and agree with nearly everything about this post except that I wouldn't take the advice to follow waterfall or PMBOK literally.

    The post laments that it's hard to find Dr. Royce's original waterfall paper. That's probably true, I have my copy from a compilation book “Ideas that Created the Future: Classic Papers of Computer Science” edited by Lewis [1].

    I do agree that it's important to do things like scope out your demands of your AI agent, check-in on progress, give as clear a requirement and test cases as you can. But you've always been able to do that with agile methods, and LLMs are fast enough that you don't need to go full waterfall (and if anything it would be counter productive).

    Dr. Royce's paper talks about literally thousands of pages of documentation being needed for any reasonably useful system. Good luck fitting that into even a 1M context window :P.

    But the main point to thesis, that you can't just let your coders loose to do whatever and expect the right results even pre-dates Fred Brooks. I'd argue it goes all the way back to the beginning, to the comments about Baggage's computing machine where British politicians asked if it would generate the correct answers even with incorrect inputs.

    The answer then is the same answer today: of course not, and expecting anything different is foolishness.

    [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0262045303

  • sscaryterry 49 minutes ago
    Take my money. This is better than "The Pragmatic Engineer".
  • wat10000 27 minutes ago
    There’s a good list of reasons why we do this, but it leaves out the biggest one, at least for me: building stuff is fun. Reinventing stuff is fun. It’s the most natural hammer to reach for whenever I encounter a nail. Not necessarily the best, but such is life.
  • saltysalt 6 minutes ago
    See also: people.
  • elktown 10 minutes ago
    Another obnoxious behaviour I’ve observed lately, is trying to attach whatever pre-existing pet methodologies one had to the AI-hype bandwagon like some sort of personal vindication orgy.
    • mosura 5 minutes ago
      We don’t have long before it is all made irrelevant so need to make one final dash for glory before it’s too late.
  • ares623 16 minutes ago
    You know the old saying: "Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, go into software engineering."

    I think it needs to be updated to just say "Those who can't do, go into software engineering". Teachers don't deserve that crap.

    • JauntyHatAngle 3 minutes ago
      What? The joke saying about that is "those who can't teach, teach gym".

      Never heard anyone say that about software engineering.