Jabber/XMPP: How Do We Gain Traction?

(gultsch.de)

46 points | by inputmice 1 hour ago

10 comments

  • jprjr_ 41 minutes ago
    Make a single cross-platform client that implements every non-humorous XEP. If you tell people "on Android you should use this app, on iOS use that app" - you lose regular people fast. If you have a feature that only exists in one app on one platform, you also really lose people.

    People don't really sign up for protocols, they download apps. Like I often refer to the fediverse as "Mastodon" even though I know that's not entirely correct, because it's the fastest, easiest way to communicate what I'm talking about - microblogging. So you really need a single, good app you can just tell people to download.

    • cyberrock 6 minutes ago
      Also a self-hosted server with opinionated defaults. The year is 2026, and most users expect persistent history without having to add mod_mam themselves. Discord won from zero because it's IRC with history. I cannot believe that chat history, mentions, etc. is still not settled.
      • pona-a 2 minutes ago
        [delayed]
    • pona-a 5 minutes ago
      [delayed]
    • dd8601fn 12 minutes ago
      It doesn’t appear to be honestly asking.

      It’s mostly whining that the world is too unfair because capitalism and people are dumb for choosing Signal, etc.

  • harvie 26 minutes ago
    Jabber/XMPP started to suck at the moment we've started using smartphones that keep reconnecting between wifi and mobile networks as i move around. relying on that single persistent TCP connection does not make sense anymore. This is huge pain with IRC as well... And no, i will not run server-side proxy irc client that is supposed to keep me reachable while im reconnecting.

    Also sending media (or even rich text) never really worked as each client implemented it differently. While whatsapp just works...

    • zajio1am 2 minutes ago
      I have no problem with that with XMPP. Conversations automatically reconnects after each switch within few seconds, so it is transparent for users. On IRC that is huge pain, true.
    • jszymborski 6 minutes ago
      So, my understanding is that while XMPP has historically sucked on mobile, it's gotten better? Does anyone know about the current experience? I don't know if it's due to new XEPs or if it's just better client implementation...
    • toast0 5 minutes ago
      This should be solvable, although maybe a little meh. Client developers on platforms without unrestricted background connections need to run a server for push notifications. And server developers need to accept and use a push url from the clients.

      If I understand correctly, Google and Apple have a way for clients to request push tokens, but in order to use the token, you have to authenticate as the app owner, so a client unaffiliated with the server can't simply send a push token to a server and have that be used ... Instead you'd need that push proxy server.

      That proxy server comes with concerns about reliability and privacy and etc, but if you do pushes without cleartext content (and you should!), the footprint is minimal and you gotta do what you gotta do.

      I don't follow xmpp/jabber, but I'd hope there's already an XEP for this. It's a pretty apparent need for the last I dunno 15 years and it has a clear solution.

      With the right agitation, maybe you could get sharable platform push tokens and skip the intermediary app developer pusg server, but that seems unlikely.

  • est 15 minutes ago
    I hope more people realize, protocol is not the problem, user experience is.

    The Telegram client leads in every aspect by far. It's just easy to use.

  • zajio1am 13 minutes ago
    I use XMPP (with OMEMO) extensively and my main problem with it is absence of some basic key trust chains and bad handling of group chats

    1) With OMEMO, each client/device of a user has its own key, but there is no trust relationship between them or some common master key. I can verify and trust counterparty key, but then counterparty adds another client/device and i have to do manual verification again.

    2) Group chats do not have group key, but one encrypt messages for each group member (pairwise), which means that everybody has to do key exchange with everybody. This does not scale, especially with 1), which means that even if membership is stable, new keys may appear. Some clients (Conversations) do not allow to send message to a group when they do not know some keys of some group members/devices, which is fail situation that happen pretty often.

  • mococa 20 minutes ago
    I think the main problem was the fragmentation & extensions
  • neilalexander 32 minutes ago
    My attempts to use XMPP mostly start and end very quickly with the fact that there isn't a single good native XMPP client for Mac or iOS. None of Monal, Siskin or Beagle are a good experience, ChatSecure appears to be abandonware and Prose is Yet Another Web App.
  • ruined 43 minutes ago
    traction? the xmpp moment was 20 years ago. it's over now
    • SoftTalker 4 minutes ago
      Yep. He's dead, Jim.

      If reviving XMPP is the battle you want to fight, best of luck but I'd encourage you to take a step back, face reality, and spend your energy on something with a better chance of success. And I say that as someone who used Jabber all day long 20 years ago.

  • pkthunder 40 minutes ago
    I think the article brushes over something that adds (IMO) a ton of friction to Jabber/XMPP: self-hosting your own server. About 6 months ago, I tried to go down the awesome selfhosted XMPP servers list and it was just so painful I ended up finding an alternative stack.
    • seszett 15 minutes ago
      On the contrary I found hosting an xmpp server extremely easy and very light in maintenance with prosody. I've been doing it for years and it's the part of my infrastructure that I spend the least time on certainly.
    • verdverm 29 minutes ago
      What stack did you land on?
  • theshrike79 30 minutes ago
    There’s no official way to “tag” people on Jabber. Clients do it but the protocol doesn’t.

    This is (to me) a big issue when using bots, for example. I need a non-ambiguous trigger for them.

  • eimrine 54 minutes ago
    I love XMPP, but its OTR plugin is kind of glitchy.
    • andix 37 minutes ago
      E2E encryption should be part of the main protocol spec and mandatory. It's 2026 now. Nobody needs a messenger that isn't encrypted.
      • verdverm 25 minutes ago
        > Nobody needs a messenger that isn't encrypted.

        Businesses want to analyze internal company messages. Chat protocols / platforms need to make inroads with one of the core audiences for online chat. Those are largely taken right now, (slack/teams business, discord gaming/oss). If it is personal/small group messaging, several E2EE options already exist, though I understand Jabber/XMPP is trying to be in the chatroom genre

        • iamnothere 14 minutes ago
          Not every messenger needs to support every use case
          • verdverm 9 minutes ago
            you'll need one major group if traction is the goal, which seems to be what the posted link is really after

            chat is network effect, so a chat app needs to answer "which network of people" if the creators about traction?

    • gatlin 30 minutes ago
      OMEMO has superseded xmpp for a while now.