8 comments

  • davb 17 minutes ago
    Further validation of our decision to move to Debian (as if the sluggish kernel updates and ramming of snaps down our throats weren’t enough). We migrated a few hundred lab machines this summer, and have around half of our servers and containers switched over. It has gone very smoothly.
  • Vaushite 2 days ago
    Tools have to be allowed to evolve. Half the Linux ecosystem's problems are caused by sticking on some design that made sense in 1980.

    At least the command is still called sudo or run0. Changing it to doas would have been a much more breaking change.

    Alas, TFA blocks me with no workaround because I'm using Tor Browser so I can't read about the nature of the changes.

    • bikvfeee 2 days ago
      To many of us it's not about the features which you obliquely refer to when you say "evolve" but about licensing. It's extremely concerning that we're replacing GPL stuff for non GPL, and just as concerning that so many folks don't recognise this point.
    • graemep 5 minutes ago
      If you read the article you would know this is a regression, not an improvement. Stuff breaking silently is never good. If you change config options error when you read the config file that no longer works.
    • jms703 7 minutes ago
      Yes, they do. Put them into your stable server distribution AFTER they are complete.
    • mtmail 18 minutes ago
      > TFA blocks me with no workaround

      I hope this copy works https://pastebin.com/mxAZyQJL (I was surprised the website even blocked archive.ph with "suspicious old browser")

    • lakeviewterrace 22 minutes ago
      > Tools have to be allowed to evolve.

      Great, then give it a new name.

      > At least the command is still called sudo or run0

      You're happy it's a knockoff?

      > would have been a much more breaking change

      All these "Rust rewrite" projects are creating breaking changes all over the place, whilst solving no real problems. They can shove them up their arses.

      • novafunc 18 minutes ago
        It’s not a knockoff. They have a friendly relationship with the original creator of sudo. And their work helps uncover bugs of the original sudo so they send fixes upstream.
        • Twirrim 5 minutes ago
          Friendly relationship or not, the end user experience is that something that was working, no longer is, because it's not feature compatible. This is despite it being used to replace it under the same name. If it had been `runas` or anything else it'd be fine.

          There's a strong principle in upstream Linux kernel about "You don't break userspace"[1], that I really wish more folks would get into their heads, but most especially a variant "You don't subtly break userspace".

          If you're going to replace an existing binary, under the same name, you need to be like-for-like in commands, even if your guts are completely different. Very few people give a damn about how it's actually implemented, just does it do what they need it to do.

          If you want to do things differently, do it under a different name and have it be an explicit break for an end user by not shipping with the original and let people choose to install it if they really don't want the new thing. Breaking things subtly is completely unacceptable.

          [1] espoused really clearly, as part of an infamous rant https://lore.kernel.org/all/CA+55aFy98A+LJK4+GWMcbzaa1zsPBRo...

        • lakeviewterrace 16 minutes ago
          All the time wasted on navel-gazing could have been spent auditing and fixing the original projects' code.

          Starting anew WILL introduce new bugs. This is a statistical certainty.

          Most Rust rewrites are justified upon imaginary boogeymen. The complex security nightmares of 'cp' 'ls' and 'rm' were begging for a new design.

          • danielheath 11 minutes ago
            One would never return “*” to signal an error in rust code (or any language with an option type).
            • lakeviewterrace 5 minutes ago
              Rust can't even self-host on most of the architectures that abortion of a library was written for.

              Holy fuck are Rust people all petty activists?

              Stop spending every waking minute telling everyone how great it is and making knockoff clones of 40 year old software and go solve new problems.

  • orf 2 days ago
    Sudoers glob expressions are a horrible footgun and I have little empathy for anyone complaining about their removal, especially when it’s trivial to fix with 3 extra (explicit) lines.
  • ikmckenz 4 minutes ago
    If they were going to make breaking changes anyways, they should have just switched to the much simpler `doas`
    • bravetraveler 3 minutes ago
      Ah, but then you don't get to skip editing docs, proclaim walking on a tightrope, or make a new TiVo.
  • bikvfeee 2 days ago
    Could someone remind me why people use Ubuntu?

    I remember 20 years ago Ubuntu was marginally more user friendly. Is it the power of inertia? Ubuntu is just Debian actively made worse.

    • Twirrim 1 minute ago
      There's a lot of inertia. That is leading to various major companies shipping their software for, and only supporting, Ubuntu, and if you're lucky Red Hat.
    • mminer237 10 minutes ago
      Ubuntu typically has more packages available and newer versions of them, besides supporting PPAs and Snaps to expand the easily available software.

      Also, Gnome and KDE are both horribly unintuitive for newcomers. Ubuntu makes a several tweaks to Gnome to make it more user-friendly. Debian just gives a list of names and says to choose one or more.

      It is mostly just inertia though.

      • ahartmetz 0 minutes ago
        From my experience, Kubuntu barely changes anything about KDE these days, and that's a good thing, too. I compile my own KDE on my usual machines, but I also have stock Kubuntu on one, and it's pretty much the same.
    • p4ul 13 minutes ago
      Yes, I would guess that a combination of inertia and network effects explain Ubuntu's prevalence.
    • poszlem 9 minutes ago
      One reason is that we have a lot of developers who get into programming in the last 10 years. Ubuntu was catering directly to "beginners". Many people who only used Ubuntu because they wanted "a linux" never really reconsidered and just use what they know (and often don't even know there are other options).
  • jmclnx 16 minutes ago
    Seems in Linux land, compatibly, even between distros, is going out the window. :(

    Individuals can deal with that, but companies will have a hard time. You would think the Linux Foundation (LF) would chime in with all these differences. But they seem more concerned with AI than Linux these days.

    If it was up to me, I would standardize on OpenBSD's doas, but me doing that would make for more incompatibilities.

  • CurbStomper5 11 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • IshKebab 17 minutes ago
    [flagged]